The Moderator: At the outset, before delving into the third segment of my dialogue series with the human rights activist and political analyst Magdi Khalil, I wish to express my profound personal satisfaction for two reasons:
First, the immense warmth and reception that the previous two parts of the dialogue received from our esteemed readers and followers, who are many.
Second, the fact that I obtained comprehensive and candid responses characterized by absolute clarity and bold disclosure regarding all that has been concealed or left unspoken about the Coptic issue in Egypt, directly from the torchbearer of this cause, my dear friend Magdi Khalil.
With the utmost respect and cordiality, I extend my greetings to you again, Magdi, before we proceed together to the questions and discussions in the third part of this dialogue.
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1. Do you perceive a gap between Muslims and Copts in Egypt regarding events in the Middle East, especially after October 7?
Certainly, there is a vast gap between Muslims and Copts regarding events in the Middle East, particularly following October 7 and the wars that ensued.
- Firstly: Most Copts wish to eliminate Hamas, the terrorist organization that breached Egypt’s borders and contributed to terrorism in Sinai, resulting in the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of Egyptians. However, most Muslims overlooked this and supported Hamas because it fights Israel.
- Secondly: Most Copts are pleased with the weakening of Hezbollah, the terrorist organization that devastated Lebanon, while most Muslims regard it as legitimate resistance against Israel.
- Thirdly: Most Copts welcome the diminishing influence of the radical religious state of Iran, which has fueled extremism in the Middle East since 1979. In contrast, many Muslims hold the opposite view, and even Al-Azhar issued a statement supporting Iran in its recent war with Israel.
- Fourthly: Most Copts seek to defeat the Houthi terrorist group, which has hijacked navigation in the Red Sea and harmed the revenues of the Suez Canal, whereas many Muslims rejoice over the Houthis because they launch rockets at Israel, and Egypt refused to join the international campaign against the Houthis.
- Fifthly: Most Copts reject turning the Palestinian issue into an Islamic issue, while most Muslims endorse this, believing that the Palestinian cause is inherently Islamic.
- Sixthly: Most Copts oppose hostility toward Israel as long as it has not attacked Egypt and respects the peace treaty between the two countries; yet most Muslims maintain this hostility.
- Seventhly: Most Copts love the Jewish people and humanity at large, irrespective of religion or ethnicity, whereas many Muslims consider hatred toward Jews a religious duty.
- Eighthly: Most Copts reject the Islamic narrative regarding Palestine, while most Muslims uphold and believe in it.
- Ninthly: Most Copts abhor and reject war with Israel, whereas many Muslims desire such a war as long as it serves Islam and fulfills Islamic prophecies.
- Tenthly: Most Copts grieve over civilian casualties regardless of religion or gender, while many Muslims rejoice in the deaths of Israelis.
In summary, Copts hold a national Egyptian perspective, whereas most Muslims adopt a religious Islamic perspective. Copts and Muslims live in two different worlds, and some Copts have been forced to feign agreement with Muslims out of fear of harm… Unfortunately, this is the reality.
2. Do you perceive a culture of hatred in Egyptian society against Copts? And what are its causes?
Certainly, there exists a deeply rooted culture of hatred against Copts, manifesting in both discriminatory practices and hate crimes.
They hate Copts because they are Christians. The Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar Ahmed Al-Tayeb publicly described Christians and Jews as infidels on the official state television, fully aware that, according to classical Islamic jurisprudence, the punishment for an infidel can be death or, as Imam Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali states, the spilling of blood and eternal damnation.
They resent the elevation of Coptic identity and the ancient Egyptian language, whereas Egyptian presidents, most recently President El-Sisi, emphasize the grandeur of the Arabic language and reject any discussion of the original Egyptian language. Even in personal names, Copts uniquely preserve Pharaonic names such as Mina, Ramses, Ahmes, Cleopatra, and Nefertiti, which Muslims generally avoid.
They dislike that Copts view the Arab conquest as an invasion, while Muslims consider it a blessed Islamic conquest. They resent Copts’ rejection of Arab identity, as Copts openly declare, “We are not Arabs, but Pharaonic and Coptic,” whereas most Muslims take pride in their Arab identity.
They despise the fact that Copts do not assimilate into Islamic culture, and they resent Copts’ study of Islamic jurisprudence while maintaining critical distance from it. They are hostile to Copts’ appreciation of Western civilization, unlike most Muslims, who tend to reject it. They oppose Copts’ aversion to violence and war, as well as their love for peace, contrasting with the deeply ingrained Islamic valorization of conflict.
They resent the appearance and societal role of Coptic women within their families, which differs from that of the conservative Muslim majority. They are antagonistic toward the civilizational contributions of Copts and actively prevent education about or discussion of the Coptic era in Egypt. They hate Coptic churches, crosses, and the Coptic Bible, attacking all associated symbols.
Ultimately, they hate Copts for being different from the Muslim majority and from the Islamic collective mindset.
3. How do you explain the absence of General Yaqub Yuhanna from the Egyptian national memory, despite his pioneering role in establishing Egypt’s first independence project and forming a Coptic army in the eighteenth century? What motivated the official narrative to marginalize or distort his image? And why they compare you to General Yaquab?
General Yaqub, or Moallem Yaqub Hanna (1745–1801), represents the antithesis of the Islamic values and culture dominant in his era.
- Firstly, he initiated the first project for Egypt’s independence from the Ottomans and the Mamluks, while Egyptian leaders like Mustafa Kamel and Mohamed Farid advocated the continued Ottoman occupation, and clerics such as Al-Sharqawi and Al-Jabarti supported the Caliphate.
- Secondly, he was the first Coptic general since the Arab conquest of Egypt in 642 CE, when Copts were forbidden from joining the army. The French awarded him the rank of General in 1801.
- Thirdly, he established the first national army in Egyptian history, the Coptic Corps. The Muslim historian Shafik Ghorbal described this corps as the first army formed from the country’s own citizens since the fall of the Pharaohs. The soldiers wore a distinctive uniform and were trained in modern defense and combat methods by French officers under the supervision of General Yaqub, who delegated command to Kléber, bestowing upon him the title of Agha.
- Fourthly, this was the first serious attempt since the crushing of the Beshmouri revolt by Caliph Al-Ma’mun to form a Coptic unit to protect Copts. After the Ottoman defeat against the French at the Battle of Ain Shams on 20 March 1800, Nasuh Pasha reportedly commanded, as Jabarti notes, “Kill the Christians and fight them.” Without General Yaqub’s Coptic Corps, the Copts in the Kiliout district and the rest of Cairo would have been annihilated.
- Fifthly, General Yaqub was the first to advocate the concept of modernization, analogous to today’s term “progress,” influenced by French experience, including a focus on arts and theater.
Many writers authored extensively about General Yaqub in foreign languages, and the official French archives have valuable records of him. In addition, the Egyptian Muslim historian Shafik Ghorbal praised him in Arabic in his book General Yaqub, the Knight Laskaris, and the Project for Egyptian Independence.
Many have compared me to General Yaqub, calling me “the new General Yaqub” who relies on foreign support. I consider this an honor, despite it being seen by some as an accusation. Just as General Yaqub called for Egypt’s independence, I advocate for Egypt’s Egyptian identity, distinct from Arab or Islamic identity, as I wrote in my article Egypt is Egyptian.
Just as General Yaqub defended Copts with arms to protect them from barbarians, I defend Copts through human rights to protect them from injustice, oppression, and mob attacks. Just as General Yaqub called for Egypt’s modernization, I advocate progressive values through engagement with Western civilization, following the great Taha Hussein in The Future of Culture in Egypt.
Just as General Yaqub collaborated with the French, who granted him citizenship, to save Egypt, I appeal to the international community for Egypt’s advancement, holding U.S. citizenship. Being likened to the eminent Coptic figure of General Yaqub is an honor, not an accusation.
General Yaqub was vilified for believing in the Egyptian nation as neither Arab nor Islamic a term later echoed by Lord Cromer in Modern Egypt and by Egyptian Renaissance pioneers such as Ahmed Lotfy El-Sayed. Those who accuse me of betrayal do so because I also champion the idea that the Egyptian nation is neither Arab nor Islamic, and I resist the Islamization of Egypt accelerated under the July 1952 coup and intensified under El-Sisi.
4. In many villages and governorates in Egypt, Copts are effectively prohibited from praying in their churches or constructing new ones. In some cases, existing churches are even closed under pressure from security agencies or in response to objections from extremists. How do you explain the persistence of these practices despite constitutional provisions guaranteeing freedom of worship?
The issue of church construction in Egypt is one of the most complex and sensitive matters. Unfortunately, it is often treated as part of the systemic humiliation of Copts. The oppressive conditions of dhimma, originating from the historical Pact of Umar, are applied in these cases. Al-Azhar strongly rejected approval of a unified law for the construction of places of worship, with Sheikh Al-Azhar asserting that a mosque is not equal to a church, declaring that all of Egypt is a mosque for Muslims. Consequently, a distorted law for church construction was issued in 2016, embedding all the humiliating dhimma conditions in a convoluted manner.
Since the Arab conquest of Egypt, the primary policy has been the demolition and burning of churches rather than their construction. Tens of thousands of churches have been destroyed, with the historian Al-Maqrizi noting that the ruler “by his command alone” demolished over thirty thousand churches in Egypt and the Levant.
Even today, hundreds of villages remain deprived of churches, forcing Copts to travel to other villages to pray. Numerous churches remain closed, and any group of Copts found praying in a private home is subject to arrest. This issue clearly reflects the systemic Islamic persecution of Copts.
5. Under what conditions do Copts thrive?
Copts thrive when there is democracy and freedom, ensuring political participation and equality; a lower degree of Islamization, meaning a separation between religion and the state; and a robust private sector that allows for the free growth of businesses. These three conditions existed during the period 1882–1952, representing the “Golden Era” for Copts.
Today, under President El-Sisi, these conditions are absent. There is unprecedented repression and a lack of freedoms, alongside accelerating Islamization in all spheres of life, particularly in education, culture, and media. The military’s domination of the economy has reduced the private sector’s contribution from 65% of GDP to 25%, impoverishing Egyptians in general and Copts in particular. This is a difficult period for Egyptians overall and especially for the Coptic community.
6. How can international law and global human rights mechanisms be leveraged to break the silence and neglect surrounding the Coptic issue within Egypt?
Given that the Coptic issue represents chronic persecution of a religious minority, and considering its relatively small size compared to major contemporary global issues, it receives limited international attention. However, Copts in the diaspora have a vital role in raising awareness of their cause on a global scale, a goal we have partially achieved.
Greater cooperation with all Middle Eastern minorities is necessary to activate international conventions and international law in support of these communities, all of whom share a common experience of Islamic persecution. Unfortunately, we live in a period of weakness in international law, making it imperative to exert double the effort to convey our voices to the international community.
7. In your opinion, what is the fundamental solution to Egypt’s highly complex issue, ensuring justice, stability, and equality for all citizens?
Egypt requires comprehensive reform in which citizenship, rather than religion, is the source of rights and duties. It demands a full-scale overhaul of governance, education, media, and religious institutions. Egypt needs prudent governance based on good administrative practices, a secular state enshrined in the constitution, and the adoption of progressive values.
- Ending injustice against Copts is a key measure of this transformation, as the conditions of minorities and women reflect the advancement or backwardness of societies. Specific measures necessary to achieve justice and equality include:
- Repealing Article 2 of the Constitution regarding the state religion and Islamic Sharia, and replacing it with a provision establishing a secular state.
- Purifying all laws of any connection to Islamic Sharia.
- Criminalizing religious discrimination and hate speech against non-Muslims.
- Ceasing state funding for Islamic institutions, as a secular state must remain neutral and treat all religions equally.
- Ending the notion of Islam as a trap for those who enter it, since currently both Islam and organized crime punish apostasy with death.
- Ending impunity for crimes targeting Copts.
- Limiting Al-Azhar University to religious education only.
- Criminalizing forced Islamization and the systematic targeting of Coptic women.
- Abolishing the church construction law, with new construction subject to notification procedures, as is done for mosques and public buildings.
- Respecting freedom of belief and religious rights for all in accordance with international conventions.
- Ensuring that state-owned media remains neutral toward all religions.
- Issuing a law for positive discrimination, guaranteeing a minimum of 10% Coptic representation in all political and administrative positions.
- Emphasizing secular scientific education as the foundation of progress.
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The Moderator: With this, we have reached the conclusion of the third part of this dialogue. Additional segments will follow in the coming days. The Coptic issue in Egypt, long ignored, deserves full exposure of what has been hidden and silenced, to prevent perpetual injustice. What has occurred over successive generations is already sufficient evidence of this enduring inequity.
